I don't fuck wit muts

There has been a lot of talk on 2+2 lately about starting hands in pot limit omaha as beset mentioned below.

The simple truth is starting hand values mean almost nothing in this game. The only difference between KKJQ double suited and KK38 rainbow in a multiway pot preflop is that KKJQ has about 5% more equity against four random hands. 5% equity is certainly nothing to shrug at, but if you can make money with the hand regardless of whether it is coordinated or not, there is no argument.

Several posters have stated that raggy big pairs are marginal hands that should not be played in early or middle position unless you play very well post flop and are capable of making big laydowns. They are definitely marginal hands... most PLO hands are. Excluding AAxx, you should expect to make about 1BB/Hand on average with your winning starting hands.

The best line used was "if you are playing these hands against players playing with better sidecards, you are effectively playing handicapped". Uhhh... wrong. Big pairs and possibly hands containing a suited ace are probably the only one way hands I would ever suggest playing preflop, and only because you are either going to hit the flop and get as much money in as possible, or fold. Position is certainly critical, but weak players in PLO get eaten up like kibble. If you are afraid of having to make decisions it is likely that this game is not for you.

Here's are some hands I played tonight out of position against a weak player.

$100 PL Omaha - Saturday, November 19, 21:09:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 66280 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: frdoc22 ( $147.60 )
Seat 3: tpipal ( $135.50 )
Seat 4: drifwood ( $166.35 )
Seat 6: DrZizmor ( $89.95 ) The Mark
Seat 8: bobmckewl ( $51.50 )
Seat 9: sikerimsizi ( $88.17 )
Seat 10: Hero ( $59.90 )

Note my shortstack, I like to buy into these games short when I first sit down, especially when there are a few players I haven't played with before, it allows me to gamble more on the flop and to set up a loose image.

Seat 5: RAM_ITS ( $99.35 )
Seat 7: pesnyary ( $98 )
Seat 2: soonkala ( $100 )
bobmckewl posts small blind [ $0.50 ].
sikerimsizi posts big blind [ $1 ].
soonkala posts big blind [ $1 ].

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [ ]
RAISE Hero , $2

I actually have a very coordinated hand in this case and choose to start building a pot. Other than the obvious broadway draw (which generally is not a great thing, it's a pot splitter) I have two flush draws and a nice little wheel draw.

FOLD frdoc22
CALL soonkala, $1
FOLD tpipal
FOLD drifwood
FOLD RAM_ITS
RAISE DrZizmor, $9.50
CALL pesnyary, $9.50
FOLD bobmckewl
FOLD sikerimsiz
CALL Hero , $7.50
CALL soonkala, $7.50

Flop:
[ ]

An okay flop for me. I've flopped top pair (doesn't generally mean much), the nut flush draw and a backdoor straight draw. I know the preflop raiser is fairly passive post flop, however, and will likely not call a big bet without QQ, 99, or some kind of wrap/flush draw. If he has AA or KK and decides to go with me, we are pretty much flipping a coin.
BET Hero , $37.55
FOLD soonkala
ALL-IN DrZizmor

Oops, he has a big hand, most likely QQ. I had about $12 left behind so of course I have to call. Whether I win or lose here, I will gain in the metagame sense since I will be able to make similar bets in the future with much stronger hands on the flop and he and others will have a much wider range to put me on than I am actually playing.

pesnyary could not respond in time.(disconnected)
A disconnect cheater, always nice.

ALL-IN Hero

Turn:
[ ]

River:
[ ]
Hero shows [ ] two pairs queens and nines .
DrZizmor shows [ ] a full house Queens full of nines .
pesnyary doesn't show [ ] three of a kind, nines.
DrZizmor wins $30.05 from side pot #2 with a full house Queens full of nines .
DrZizmor wins $99.75 from side pot #1 with a full house Queens full of nines .
DrZizmor wins $37.55 from the main pot with a full house Queens full of nines .

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1356299
pokenum  -o ac jc qd 3d  - qs 7s ah qh  -- qc 9d 2d  / 8h 9c ts js
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Qc 9d 2d
cards          win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
Ac Jc  Qd  3d  267  40.09   398  59.76    1  0.15  0.402
Qs 7s  Ah  Qh  398  59.76   267  40.09    1  0.15  0.598

If you look at the numbers here, I wasn't even that much of a dog and I am winning that pot on the flop the majority of the time. He has to wake up with a big hand to call/raise there so I have fold equity most of the time, and against someone that is generally uncomfortable playing for big bets post flop without a very strong hand I have a lot of fold equity here. He ended up winning in this spot, but a few hundred hands later my play paid off.

***** Hand History for Game (?) *****
$100 PL Omaha - Saturday, November 19, 21:48:45 EDT 2005
Table Table 66280 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: pam_jam ( $42.90 )
Seat 2: soonkala ( $83.20 )
Seat 4: drifwood ( $178.85 )
Seat 6: DrZizmor ( $177.55 )
Seat 7: pesnyary ( $82.25 )
Seat 9: sikerimsizi ( $78.22 )
Seat 10: Hero ( $123.05 )
Seat 3: Turnis ( $99.75 )
pesnyary posts small blind [ $0.50 ].
sikerimsizi posts big blind [ $1 ].
drifwood posts big blind [ $1 ].

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [ ]

A totally uncoordinated junky pair of jacks. I am going to see a flop with this hand to see if I can flop a set, that's it. OOP I am not terribly happy if I flop the nut straight since I will win or split a small pot most of the time. I know my opponents are somewhat weak and will go too far with bad draws and made hands though, so I will invest a little bit preflop in this dog hand.

CALL Hero , $1
FOLD pam_jam
CALL soonkala, $1
CALL Turnis, $1
CHECK drifwood
RAM_ITS has joined the table.
RAISE DrZizmor $7.50

I can win against this guy in more ways than just flopping the best hand and I may get some callers behind if I call, so I decide to go with it. We both have deepish stacks.

FOLD pesnyary
FOLD sikerimsizi
CALL Hero $6.50
FOLD soonkala
FOLD Turnis
FOLD drifwood

Oh well, no callers behind.
Flop :
[ ]


Great flop! Now I have to decide how to approach the betting. I basically have three options.

1. Make a weak bet like I am trying to bluff him out cheaply. This generally doesn't work and I don't want to give him even close to the right price if he has a flush or straight draw.
2. Check-raise. This can work. He may check behind though, since it's HU and I have a pretty huge range preflop. If he didn't hit this flop I don't want to give him a free card on the turn to hit an overpair and break me. It is also fairly obvious and will give away the strength of my hand. If I check-raise, he smooth calls the raise and a diamond or straight card comes off he will be able to bet into me with impunity and may cause me to make a wrong decision (doubtful, but there's always a possibility).
3. Bet out. In the previous hand I bet out with a relatively weak hand. In this case I am very strong and betting strong will actually mask the strength of my hand.

BET Hero , $18.55
RAISE DrZizmor, $74.20
ALL-IN Hero
CALL DrZizmor, $41.35

Turn:
[ ]

River:
[ ]
DrZizmor shows [ ] high card ace .
Hero shows [ ] three of a kind jacks .
Hero wins $247.60 from the main pot with three of a kind jacks .

So what happened? I got him to over commit a lot of money, especially relative to the pot size, with a seven out flush draw. In this case I was a 75/25 favorite and he had no reason to believe I would bet out and fold. Players that are as easily manipulated as this play every limit and are the reason I will continue to play crappy big pairs in EP until the day I die.